So not quite right; it was less that Sparta and Athens were rivals than they were the two "great powers" of Hellas (to use the Greek's own term). The creation of an essentially imperial Athenian Empire through the Delian League and coercion led the weaker polises of Hellas to appeal to Sparta for help against Athens. Athens was very definitely not the "good guys" in this story; rather they were essentially bullies in their foreign policy using the maintenance of a fleet (a very costly endeavor) to prevent a repeat of Persian aggression as an excuse to expand their influence.
It's a great read; I've tried to read it in the original Attic but my Greek isn't that good (I can barely deal with Xenophon). Speaking of Xenophon, his "History of My Times" picks up where Thucydides leaves off.
Thanks so much for clarifying! I'm still trying to piece this all together, and always welcome corrections and extra context from readers.
I suppose 'rivals' was too strong a word. From what I understood, it seemed that Athens' rise to power was something of a threat to Sparta, which led to a kind of unspoken tension between them?
This adds a lot of context to the purpose of the Delian League, also. I hadn't made the connection to imperialism, and it certainly makes a lot of sense.
You've inspired me to stick with this one. Thanks again!
Yes, Sparta was a very self-absorbed state, largely because of its internal problems with suppression of the Helots. It was reluctant to commit to outside affairs due to the constant fear of a Helot uprising. But it was, at least in military terms, the most powerful polis in Hellas. Athens' power rested in its naval power, but even though it was the largest single contributor of ships and manpower to the Delian League it was very definitely dependent on the League's contributions in maintaining that power. so it was more externally focused, and brutally punished any attempts to leave the League. Athens even removed the treasury of the League from Delos to Athens and used it to enrich Athens itself. So yeah, Athens was kind of the bad actor in the whole deal.
Thanks for the insight! I'll definitely keep it in mind while reading. I hope to see more comments from you in the future while I work through this one. The extra context is really helpful!
Hey, I'm a Greek history nerd...love discussing this stuff! If you want to duscuss or better yet have a different point of view I'm always happy to oblige!😁
If you need any comic relief my favorite writer composed comedies at this time, Aristophanes (translated by Paul Roche,brilliant!) It definitely has parallels to America, with a moron at the helm driving the country into wars and defeat, a once great power. Aristophanes, wrote a play where the women from both sides withheld sex until their idiot husbands saw sense!
Wow, cool! It's funny—I've been doing all this research into Ancient Greece, and it never even occurred to me to pick up a work of fiction and have some fun with it.
The scenes you describe do sound very familiar... people never change, huh?
Thanks, Michael! You might see an Aristophanes post on here soon...
So not quite right; it was less that Sparta and Athens were rivals than they were the two "great powers" of Hellas (to use the Greek's own term). The creation of an essentially imperial Athenian Empire through the Delian League and coercion led the weaker polises of Hellas to appeal to Sparta for help against Athens. Athens was very definitely not the "good guys" in this story; rather they were essentially bullies in their foreign policy using the maintenance of a fleet (a very costly endeavor) to prevent a repeat of Persian aggression as an excuse to expand their influence.
It's a great read; I've tried to read it in the original Attic but my Greek isn't that good (I can barely deal with Xenophon). Speaking of Xenophon, his "History of My Times" picks up where Thucydides leaves off.
Thanks so much for clarifying! I'm still trying to piece this all together, and always welcome corrections and extra context from readers.
I suppose 'rivals' was too strong a word. From what I understood, it seemed that Athens' rise to power was something of a threat to Sparta, which led to a kind of unspoken tension between them?
This adds a lot of context to the purpose of the Delian League, also. I hadn't made the connection to imperialism, and it certainly makes a lot of sense.
You've inspired me to stick with this one. Thanks again!
Yes, Sparta was a very self-absorbed state, largely because of its internal problems with suppression of the Helots. It was reluctant to commit to outside affairs due to the constant fear of a Helot uprising. But it was, at least in military terms, the most powerful polis in Hellas. Athens' power rested in its naval power, but even though it was the largest single contributor of ships and manpower to the Delian League it was very definitely dependent on the League's contributions in maintaining that power. so it was more externally focused, and brutally punished any attempts to leave the League. Athens even removed the treasury of the League from Delos to Athens and used it to enrich Athens itself. So yeah, Athens was kind of the bad actor in the whole deal.
Thanks for the insight! I'll definitely keep it in mind while reading. I hope to see more comments from you in the future while I work through this one. The extra context is really helpful!
Hey, I'm a Greek history nerd...love discussing this stuff! If you want to duscuss or better yet have a different point of view I'm always happy to oblige!😁
If you need any comic relief my favorite writer composed comedies at this time, Aristophanes (translated by Paul Roche,brilliant!) It definitely has parallels to America, with a moron at the helm driving the country into wars and defeat, a once great power. Aristophanes, wrote a play where the women from both sides withheld sex until their idiot husbands saw sense!
Wow, cool! It's funny—I've been doing all this research into Ancient Greece, and it never even occurred to me to pick up a work of fiction and have some fun with it.
The scenes you describe do sound very familiar... people never change, huh?
Thanks, Michael! You might see an Aristophanes post on here soon...
Ah, I love it!