My mom couldn't conceive and my parents very much wanted children. My birth mom had been abandoned by her husband, had an affair with a married guy and got pregnant with me. I'm writing this so she obviously chose to put me up for adoption. She could have chosen to have an abortion, it was the 1960s and women's lib was in full force, but thankfully she didn't.
I agree with you that there must be a deeper conversation. You brought up many great points. It's interesting now that adoption is not even part of the conversation. I suppose that for women who have trouble getting pregnant there is IVF.
You bring up a great point. It's a shame that this choice is so often overlooked nowadays.
I imagine this has to do with the nonchalance with which so many people view abortion.
If abortion is victimless, as so many people assert, then why not go with the 'easier' option?
It makes me wonder whether this whole thing was a result of social engineering—a heartless, calculated propaganda campaign designed to control the population and take strain off of the adoption and foster care system.
It's a shame, and of course, I'm glad your mother chose the compassionate route.
Thanks! I get where you're coming from with the social engineering, and it sure might be that now, but it didn't start out that way. Ideas morph and grow into all kinds of things. The women's movement was needed because men ruled everything, but the men pushed back. They didn't want to give up their superiority and power. Then women pushed even harder. When we act out of anger, desperation, or from a fuck you perspective, what starts out as a good thing almost always becomes something not so good. There are always opportunists around too. IVF is expensive and now with CRISPR technology, they can create the perfect kid for whoever is willing to pay for it. I suspect there are several agendas at play when it comes to the abortion topic.
"When we act out of anger, desperation, or from a fuck you perspective, what starts out as a good thing almost always becomes something not so good."
Well said. I definitely do not want to diminish the necessity for the beginnings of the women's movement; I would not want to live in the world that existed before women argued for the rights that we enjoy today. It is unfortunate that most issues people argue about today are well-meaning concepts like this which have been stretched to destructive extremes.
My mother always tells me that she takes the 'middle-of-the-road' approach to everything—no matter the issue, her response is that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. When I was younger, I thought this was an overly simplistic view of things. It still kind of is, but it works damn well in most situations.
I think you're right to bring up IVF and CRISPR (I just looked up what this was and WOW). I don't hear people speak much about them in this context, but I think you're right that they influence the political agenda regarding the abortion topic. Who wants someone else's child when you can design one of your own? Insidious stuff.
I too advised a dear loved one it was ok to abort her child… an abusive rich spoiled brat was the father and he voiced his dislike for her to keep it and make her life miserable if she did. A sexually abused girl in adolescence already a smoking and drinking nightmare- my friend became depressed and reckless unable to heal the void that abortion made in her. Fast forward 30 years, five children and three baby daddies later she’s starting a path to Jesus albeit slow and seeking to deal with the effects of her decision. It’s the biggest regret of my life I didn’t tell her she would be a great mom and then support her as her friend. Gen X was lied to. There’s a huge cost to taking life.
Thank you for sharing this story. It's so horrible that a vulnerable young girl was put in this position. Life doesn't seem fair sometimes.
Your friend's story really reminds me of what happened to my friend—she was in a bad place, she wasn't 'ready,' but afterwards, she spiraled into a self-destructive state that was far worse. I agree—if I could have one 'do-over' in life, I'd go back and encourage her to at least consider the other option.
No pro life advocate calls any woman in that position a monster. Seriously: the pro-life people I have met are some of the kindest and most compassionate people I have ever had the privilege to speak to. Have you ever even spoken to one?
However, there are "monsters" in this discussion. They are the politicians and adoration advocates that prey on women in this position for political points or money. Using them as pawns and encouraging infanticide while celebrating the torturous death of a baby is incredibly monstrous.
I regret putting that line in the post—I'm hesitant to make significant changes to things I've already published, but I may add a note in there stating this.
When I wrote that line, I was envisioning the negative stereotype that I had of pro-life advocates when I was that age (having never communicated with any of them and only heard about them from the media). I was attacking a common misconception that is representative of a very tiny portion of the population (a point which, unfortunately, I think I articulated poorly.
I agree with you regarding the real 'monsters' in this discussion. This agenda that's being pushed where women are told that abortion is justified—or even the 'smart' thing to do—in the case of an unplanned pregnancy has damaged so many women.
How refreshing your honesty is. ❤️ I hope you visit a pro-life support center and talk to the women there. They are truly wonderful people. Many had abortions themselves. They are incredibly empathetic and compassionate.
Maybe I will—it's the only way to really understand. Growing up in liberal New York City, I'd imagined these places to be inhabited by 'religious nuts' who wanted to impose their beliefs on others. In hindsight, I wonder whether this idea actually came from the 'real world,' versus how much was influenced by what I'd seen on TV, having had no real-life experience to prove otherwise.
Thank you for these comments. The whole point of writing and exploring ideas is to learn, but I feel like a lot of the time with issues like this (especially on the Internet) the discourse is so often governed by stereotypes and knee-jerk reactions. I'm always refreshed on Substack to find that deeper conversations can be had.
I don't think any liberal New Yorker has any idea of who true Christians are or how they operate in the world. The CINO (Christians in Name Only) contingent has really misrepresented the faith. Practiced properly, it is all about a close relationship with Jesus, not at all about working your way to "heaven" or religious rules. Knowing Jesus is the most joyful, freeing, fulfilling and life changing decision a person can make. There is no judgement involved.
You hit the nail on the head. I was raised Catholic (went to church on Sundays), and always conceptualized Christianity as blind obedience to a judgmental, punitive god.
Interestingly, older Catholics seem to view the faith differently; they embody the fulfilling relationship with Jesus that you describe here. It's unclear where the disconnect has come from. The churches are still here, but they just don't speak to young people anymore (thus, most young 'Christians' are CINO from having been born into it).
The Christians I've spoken to on Substack are some of the most thoughtful, open-minded, and understanding people out there, and I've come to realize that true Christianity is a framework of spiritual understanding (a far cry from the 'cultish' stereotype that I gleaned from Catholic schooling coupled with 'progressive' ideology).
It's strange to look back and see how different my thinking is now from the way it was back then.
I really appreciated reading your article. I’m closely connected with people who work in crisis pregnancy centers. One thing I know is that they do recognize the issues before the mother that lead her to even think of killing her child. They don’t just pray. They often provide prenatal care, baby clothes , car seats etc. They give parenting classes. They help fathers with their new role. They give referrals to others who have resources. They assist with connecting to adoption agencies.
It is 2 lives! Killing the one is not good for either of them. It has devastating consequences. Besides being wrong.
John 8:32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
If I could ‘take back’ anything from this article, it would be the implication that people who are against abortion lack empathy for women. Admittedly, I was thinking of one very small and negative stereotype, and overlooking all of the people that you just described who do their best to support women.
“It is 2 lives! Killing the one is not good for either of them. It has devastating consequences. Besides being wrong.”
Absolutely. I think if there’s any argument against relativism and for a universal morality and inborn sense of right and wrong, it’s the fact that women who go this route end up so distraught afterwards, even when society tells them that it is okay.
Nobody ever sees the woman in pain, confused, and wanting loving guidance."
Well put. I have no doubt that the people on both sides of this debate have the best interest of the woman in mind (and arguably even the child) in mind.
It is a shame that talking about such a delicate issue compels so many people to support to hate—it is only by calmly seeing another's perspective that anyone can ever be persuaded.
I feel like I got 'psy-oped' into getting abortions. It seemed perfectly acceptable, probably even sensible to have them. No one ever mentioned my relationship to the unborn child or emphasized the sacredness of it. Now that I'm older (and childless) I think about my decisions with wonder. I would certainly make different choices now.
My position is spiritual, which means it’s foundational to who I am.
I approach the issue this way:
1) women control their bodies
2) abuse should not be tolerated
3) conception is the beginning of life
If I was advising a woman about this issue I would try to understand how deeply she thinks. Is she only having the abortion because it is being offered?
Where does life become valuable? Ive heard that in Korea, they use time in the womb as the starting point for calculating age.
What underlies the perspective in America? Id say it’s answered by how we value dependence and productivity. A zygote is the beginning but most dependent stage of life. Does that make it less important? Our lives are valued by how productive they are. The state prefers we are not self governing; it wants us in a mindset of dependent but productive. We discard life when both those factors aren’t met. Zeke Immanual has put the same discussion on the end of life as well when he addressed a room of people with the idea that 75 years old is a full life. Doctors aren’t expected to fight too hard for somebody in those age groups.
The other problem has to do with industries that become tied to the abortion. Selling parts for research is one thing. The medical industrial complex is powerful and probably has a hand in the propaganda to maintain this view of life.
Abortion should never be used as birth control. There was a time when it was frowned upon to use other methods of birth control, but we are in a different age.
I could probably say a bit more but my break at work is over.
You're asking the right questions about what has influenced the American perspective in this way. You're spot-on about the medical industrial complex. Depopulation is probably also a factor. Your point about productivity makes sense, too—in fact, it works as a good explanation for why Americans these days are having less children in general.
I can't say for certain when the beginning of life is, but I suspect you're right. I mentioned this in response to someone else's comment as well: if there is any 'proof' of a universal moral code, it is the fact that women are negatively affected by abortions even in a society that tells them that it is okay.
I don't think you ignored my point at all! I actually think it connects pretty well—this point provides evidence for the fact that life does begin at conception.
I have started to write about this topic many, many times. I and my wife of 20 years(if we make it to 22nd…❤️) have both experienced it in our own way before we met. We were both very young and it had a profound effect on us both. I touched on my experience a little bit in one of my stories. It’s my only paid only story. I’ll post it below and comp you so you can read it if you’d like.
Side note: our youngest son’s name is 3(or a synonym for it anyway) He is both of our third child, although that didn’t play a part in the choosing of his name. We didn’t realize it until years later. ❤️
Thank you so much for sharing this, Will. I’m really looking forward to reading it, and am waiting for a moment when I can sit down and give it the attention it deserves.
It’s really cool that you had this connection with your wife before ever realizing it. So strange when life works out that way.
I wouldn't take the author quoted seriously. He thinks "pagans" believe in scientific "cluster of atoms" type materialism. Clearly biased. Pagans have their own views on children, part of a larger framework including reincarnation and veneration of ancestors. They did not let everyone live indiscriminately, because life then demanded eugenic practices, but they were not without principles.
I definitely don't agree with the author on all counts, but I felt he deserved a mention for sparking the thought—I don't like to 'borrow' ideas without giving credit where it is due.
I never quoted him, though (just linked to the article), but I did quote a comment that I left on his article. I just want to make sure you know that this quote was mine!
True education about the aims and damage abortion can do to society, population, backend Healthcare costs and the soul of the mother is something that needs to be discussed more. Is it more damaging to the woman to have the baby or not?
I talk about it all the time. I can no longer even be privately pro life and the well let them choose. I can't be silent when that choice will destroy them and their future happiness.
49 days. Around seven weeks from conception is when the heart starts beating, brainwave activity starts… this when the soul enters the new body and coincides with a burst of DMT. Pregnancy tests should be cheap included with birth control. If you have sex, use a test the next morning and verify once a week until your next cycle should start. This is a woman’s responsibility. If she can’t handle that then she should not have children until she gets her shit together.
You speak of the impact of the pregnancy upon the mother. Regardless of whether the mother takes the child to term or not, they are affected physically by the pregnancy.
Interesting! I'm surprised I've never heard of this; it definitely seems like something that should be brought up in this debate.
Forgive me if this comment sounds a little 'out there,' but it strikes me as a reflection of the way the physical world mirrors the spiritual—mothers are affected by their pregnancies, so it makes sense that this change should be apparent physically as well as mentally.
Wow, you took that issue on, and did it well. One of the most thoughtful commentators on the issue is Faye Wattleton, who was director of Planned Parenthood. It must have been decades ago, but I remember her from an interview talking with very calm empathy about the mother. Your post immediately triggered that memory, which I don't have any reason to recall, except for the authenticity connection between you two. At the end of the interview she briefly discusses her illegal abortion. It is at @ 36:15 https://youtu.be/7izZ2dgoP0o?feature=shared&t=2175
Wow, interesting! I want to respond more thoroughly after I get the chance to watch the interview, but my initial reaction was that I was surprised that the director of Planned Parenthood would have such a nuanced perspective on the issue. (In retrospect and after a quick Google search, this makes perfect sense.)
I think everyone is approaching this issue in good faith; it's a shame so much hate gets in the way of understanding one another.
>>Now, imagine you look into it, and one ‘side’ of the debate talks about you as if you are a monster, while the other shows you empathy.
I definitely think I will be writing a response, and I think this line will be the one that I will be responding to. Because I think we both agree that 'one side' talks about women as if they were monsters. I think we may disagree on which side that is...
I have compassion for both sides of the issue, and have no doubt that everyone has the woman's best interest in mind, even though they approach it from wildly different angles. I'm eager to see how you break this down.
Ah... and I don't. I don't think everyone has the woman's best interest in mind. I am way, way more cynical than that. I think that many political leaders, of both stripes, have mostly their own political power and prestige in mind; and my theological beliefs is that evil is deep in the heart of man.
I have the post mostly written and will put it in the queue. Tentatively scheduled Tuesday the 14th.
Ah, I misspoke—by 'everyone' I was referring to the 'typical' proponent of either side (i.e. the vast majority of pro-lifers fighting against abortion in order to save the babies, or the well-meaning liberals advocating for a woman's right to take control of her own life.
Undoubtedly politicians do not fall under this label.
There exists both evil and good in the heart of man, and depending on the topic, politicians play upon both of these tendencies in order to sway the public. On the abortion issue in particular, they tend to target virtue. Although I'm sure there are some people arguing in favor of baby-murder just for the hell of it, generally, people choose their side of this issue because they believe that it to be right and just.
Awesome, Melissa. Since God said this to Jeremiah: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5) Could it be Satan knows this and propagated abortion to stop the future prophets of God? I say, “yes.”
My mom couldn't conceive and my parents very much wanted children. My birth mom had been abandoned by her husband, had an affair with a married guy and got pregnant with me. I'm writing this so she obviously chose to put me up for adoption. She could have chosen to have an abortion, it was the 1960s and women's lib was in full force, but thankfully she didn't.
I agree with you that there must be a deeper conversation. You brought up many great points. It's interesting now that adoption is not even part of the conversation. I suppose that for women who have trouble getting pregnant there is IVF.
You bring up a great point. It's a shame that this choice is so often overlooked nowadays.
I imagine this has to do with the nonchalance with which so many people view abortion.
If abortion is victimless, as so many people assert, then why not go with the 'easier' option?
It makes me wonder whether this whole thing was a result of social engineering—a heartless, calculated propaganda campaign designed to control the population and take strain off of the adoption and foster care system.
It's a shame, and of course, I'm glad your mother chose the compassionate route.
Thanks! I get where you're coming from with the social engineering, and it sure might be that now, but it didn't start out that way. Ideas morph and grow into all kinds of things. The women's movement was needed because men ruled everything, but the men pushed back. They didn't want to give up their superiority and power. Then women pushed even harder. When we act out of anger, desperation, or from a fuck you perspective, what starts out as a good thing almost always becomes something not so good. There are always opportunists around too. IVF is expensive and now with CRISPR technology, they can create the perfect kid for whoever is willing to pay for it. I suspect there are several agendas at play when it comes to the abortion topic.
"When we act out of anger, desperation, or from a fuck you perspective, what starts out as a good thing almost always becomes something not so good."
Well said. I definitely do not want to diminish the necessity for the beginnings of the women's movement; I would not want to live in the world that existed before women argued for the rights that we enjoy today. It is unfortunate that most issues people argue about today are well-meaning concepts like this which have been stretched to destructive extremes.
My mother always tells me that she takes the 'middle-of-the-road' approach to everything—no matter the issue, her response is that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. When I was younger, I thought this was an overly simplistic view of things. It still kind of is, but it works damn well in most situations.
I think you're right to bring up IVF and CRISPR (I just looked up what this was and WOW). I don't hear people speak much about them in this context, but I think you're right that they influence the political agenda regarding the abortion topic. Who wants someone else's child when you can design one of your own? Insidious stuff.
I too advised a dear loved one it was ok to abort her child… an abusive rich spoiled brat was the father and he voiced his dislike for her to keep it and make her life miserable if she did. A sexually abused girl in adolescence already a smoking and drinking nightmare- my friend became depressed and reckless unable to heal the void that abortion made in her. Fast forward 30 years, five children and three baby daddies later she’s starting a path to Jesus albeit slow and seeking to deal with the effects of her decision. It’s the biggest regret of my life I didn’t tell her she would be a great mom and then support her as her friend. Gen X was lied to. There’s a huge cost to taking life.
Thank you for sharing this story. It's so horrible that a vulnerable young girl was put in this position. Life doesn't seem fair sometimes.
Your friend's story really reminds me of what happened to my friend—she was in a bad place, she wasn't 'ready,' but afterwards, she spiraled into a self-destructive state that was far worse. I agree—if I could have one 'do-over' in life, I'd go back and encourage her to at least consider the other option.
I'm glad your friend is doing better now.
No pro life advocate calls any woman in that position a monster. Seriously: the pro-life people I have met are some of the kindest and most compassionate people I have ever had the privilege to speak to. Have you ever even spoken to one?
However, there are "monsters" in this discussion. They are the politicians and adoration advocates that prey on women in this position for political points or money. Using them as pawns and encouraging infanticide while celebrating the torturous death of a baby is incredibly monstrous.
I regret putting that line in the post—I'm hesitant to make significant changes to things I've already published, but I may add a note in there stating this.
When I wrote that line, I was envisioning the negative stereotype that I had of pro-life advocates when I was that age (having never communicated with any of them and only heard about them from the media). I was attacking a common misconception that is representative of a very tiny portion of the population (a point which, unfortunately, I think I articulated poorly.
I agree with you regarding the real 'monsters' in this discussion. This agenda that's being pushed where women are told that abortion is justified—or even the 'smart' thing to do—in the case of an unplanned pregnancy has damaged so many women.
How refreshing your honesty is. ❤️ I hope you visit a pro-life support center and talk to the women there. They are truly wonderful people. Many had abortions themselves. They are incredibly empathetic and compassionate.
Maybe I will—it's the only way to really understand. Growing up in liberal New York City, I'd imagined these places to be inhabited by 'religious nuts' who wanted to impose their beliefs on others. In hindsight, I wonder whether this idea actually came from the 'real world,' versus how much was influenced by what I'd seen on TV, having had no real-life experience to prove otherwise.
Thank you for these comments. The whole point of writing and exploring ideas is to learn, but I feel like a lot of the time with issues like this (especially on the Internet) the discourse is so often governed by stereotypes and knee-jerk reactions. I'm always refreshed on Substack to find that deeper conversations can be had.
I don't think any liberal New Yorker has any idea of who true Christians are or how they operate in the world. The CINO (Christians in Name Only) contingent has really misrepresented the faith. Practiced properly, it is all about a close relationship with Jesus, not at all about working your way to "heaven" or religious rules. Knowing Jesus is the most joyful, freeing, fulfilling and life changing decision a person can make. There is no judgement involved.
You hit the nail on the head. I was raised Catholic (went to church on Sundays), and always conceptualized Christianity as blind obedience to a judgmental, punitive god.
Interestingly, older Catholics seem to view the faith differently; they embody the fulfilling relationship with Jesus that you describe here. It's unclear where the disconnect has come from. The churches are still here, but they just don't speak to young people anymore (thus, most young 'Christians' are CINO from having been born into it).
The Christians I've spoken to on Substack are some of the most thoughtful, open-minded, and understanding people out there, and I've come to realize that true Christianity is a framework of spiritual understanding (a far cry from the 'cultish' stereotype that I gleaned from Catholic schooling coupled with 'progressive' ideology).
It's strange to look back and see how different my thinking is now from the way it was back then.
My greatest personal growth has come from reading the Bible. Cover to cover. Highly recommend it.
Judging is clearly enjoined.
I really appreciated reading your article. I’m closely connected with people who work in crisis pregnancy centers. One thing I know is that they do recognize the issues before the mother that lead her to even think of killing her child. They don’t just pray. They often provide prenatal care, baby clothes , car seats etc. They give parenting classes. They help fathers with their new role. They give referrals to others who have resources. They assist with connecting to adoption agencies.
It is 2 lives! Killing the one is not good for either of them. It has devastating consequences. Besides being wrong.
John 8:32 and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Thank you for this comment.
If I could ‘take back’ anything from this article, it would be the implication that people who are against abortion lack empathy for women. Admittedly, I was thinking of one very small and negative stereotype, and overlooking all of the people that you just described who do their best to support women.
“It is 2 lives! Killing the one is not good for either of them. It has devastating consequences. Besides being wrong.”
Absolutely. I think if there’s any argument against relativism and for a universal morality and inborn sense of right and wrong, it’s the fact that women who go this route end up so distraught afterwards, even when society tells them that it is okay.
One side tries pray with the woman before she goes inside, the other side tries to prevent them from doing that.
One side calls the baby a human being, one side calls it a lump of cells.
One side says that the child feels pain, one side says it doesn't.
One side provides burials for miscarriage, the other side stacks the babies like dead wood in their offices.
We are all the monsters that the other sees.
Nobody ever sees the woman in pain, confused, and wanting loving guidance.
"We are all the monsters that the other sees.
Nobody ever sees the woman in pain, confused, and wanting loving guidance."
Well put. I have no doubt that the people on both sides of this debate have the best interest of the woman in mind (and arguably even the child) in mind.
It is a shame that talking about such a delicate issue compels so many people to support to hate—it is only by calmly seeing another's perspective that anyone can ever be persuaded.
I feel like I got 'psy-oped' into getting abortions. It seemed perfectly acceptable, probably even sensible to have them. No one ever mentioned my relationship to the unborn child or emphasized the sacredness of it. Now that I'm older (and childless) I think about my decisions with wonder. I would certainly make different choices now.
I’m sorry this happened; it’s such a shame that this has been the experience for so many people.
I was taught similarly: when you’re young, in the case of an unplanned pregnancy, having an abortion is the responsible thing to do.
It’s only now looking back that I realize my whole generation was lied to.
Thanks for sharing this.
My position is spiritual, which means it’s foundational to who I am.
I approach the issue this way:
1) women control their bodies
2) abuse should not be tolerated
3) conception is the beginning of life
If I was advising a woman about this issue I would try to understand how deeply she thinks. Is she only having the abortion because it is being offered?
Where does life become valuable? Ive heard that in Korea, they use time in the womb as the starting point for calculating age.
What underlies the perspective in America? Id say it’s answered by how we value dependence and productivity. A zygote is the beginning but most dependent stage of life. Does that make it less important? Our lives are valued by how productive they are. The state prefers we are not self governing; it wants us in a mindset of dependent but productive. We discard life when both those factors aren’t met. Zeke Immanual has put the same discussion on the end of life as well when he addressed a room of people with the idea that 75 years old is a full life. Doctors aren’t expected to fight too hard for somebody in those age groups.
The other problem has to do with industries that become tied to the abortion. Selling parts for research is one thing. The medical industrial complex is powerful and probably has a hand in the propaganda to maintain this view of life.
Abortion should never be used as birth control. There was a time when it was frowned upon to use other methods of birth control, but we are in a different age.
I could probably say a bit more but my break at work is over.
You're asking the right questions about what has influenced the American perspective in this way. You're spot-on about the medical industrial complex. Depopulation is probably also a factor. Your point about productivity makes sense, too—in fact, it works as a good explanation for why Americans these days are having less children in general.
I can't say for certain when the beginning of life is, but I suspect you're right. I mentioned this in response to someone else's comment as well: if there is any 'proof' of a universal moral code, it is the fact that women are negatively affected by abortions even in a society that tells them that it is okay.
“it is the fact that women are negatively affected by abortions even in a society that tells them that it is okay.”
didn’t mean to ignore your point. I agree with you about that.
I don't think you ignored my point at all! I actually think it connects pretty well—this point provides evidence for the fact that life does begin at conception.
An emotionally-powerful yet well-reasoned discussion; much to consider here.
Very well done 🫡
Thank you so much!!
I have started to write about this topic many, many times. I and my wife of 20 years(if we make it to 22nd…❤️) have both experienced it in our own way before we met. We were both very young and it had a profound effect on us both. I touched on my experience a little bit in one of my stories. It’s my only paid only story. I’ll post it below and comp you so you can read it if you’d like.
Side note: our youngest son’s name is 3(or a synonym for it anyway) He is both of our third child, although that didn’t play a part in the choosing of his name. We didn’t realize it until years later. ❤️
https://fromaghosttoaghost.substack.com/p/gratitude-for-an-old-friendnot-the?r=38usvw
Thank you so much for sharing this, Will. I’m really looking forward to reading it, and am waiting for a moment when I can sit down and give it the attention it deserves.
It’s really cool that you had this connection with your wife before ever realizing it. So strange when life works out that way.
I wouldn't take the author quoted seriously. He thinks "pagans" believe in scientific "cluster of atoms" type materialism. Clearly biased. Pagans have their own views on children, part of a larger framework including reincarnation and veneration of ancestors. They did not let everyone live indiscriminately, because life then demanded eugenic practices, but they were not without principles.
I definitely don't agree with the author on all counts, but I felt he deserved a mention for sparking the thought—I don't like to 'borrow' ideas without giving credit where it is due.
I never quoted him, though (just linked to the article), but I did quote a comment that I left on his article. I just want to make sure you know that this quote was mine!
True education about the aims and damage abortion can do to society, population, backend Healthcare costs and the soul of the mother is something that needs to be discussed more. Is it more damaging to the woman to have the baby or not?
Definitely. So often it seems to just be assumed that facing the baby is more harmful, which is often not the case.
It’s strange how once things become a ‘debate’ true large-scale discussion about them is hard to come by.
I talk about it all the time. I can no longer even be privately pro life and the well let them choose. I can't be silent when that choice will destroy them and their future happiness.
49 days. Around seven weeks from conception is when the heart starts beating, brainwave activity starts… this when the soul enters the new body and coincides with a burst of DMT. Pregnancy tests should be cheap included with birth control. If you have sex, use a test the next morning and verify once a week until your next cycle should start. This is a woman’s responsibility. If she can’t handle that then she should not have children until she gets her shit together.
I never knew that about the seven week mark—cool!
Not sure about the pregnancy tests every day thing; might be a little harsh on women.
But interesting argument about when life begins.
You speak of the impact of the pregnancy upon the mother. Regardless of whether the mother takes the child to term or not, they are affected physically by the pregnancy.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/babys-cells-can-manipulate-moms-body-decades-180956493/
I wonder why this effect of pregnancy on the mother is little spoken about.
Interesting! I'm surprised I've never heard of this; it definitely seems like something that should be brought up in this debate.
Forgive me if this comment sounds a little 'out there,' but it strikes me as a reflection of the way the physical world mirrors the spiritual—mothers are affected by their pregnancies, so it makes sense that this change should be apparent physically as well as mentally.
Thanks for sharing this!
Wow, you took that issue on, and did it well. One of the most thoughtful commentators on the issue is Faye Wattleton, who was director of Planned Parenthood. It must have been decades ago, but I remember her from an interview talking with very calm empathy about the mother. Your post immediately triggered that memory, which I don't have any reason to recall, except for the authenticity connection between you two. At the end of the interview she briefly discusses her illegal abortion. It is at @ 36:15 https://youtu.be/7izZ2dgoP0o?feature=shared&t=2175
Wow, interesting! I want to respond more thoroughly after I get the chance to watch the interview, but my initial reaction was that I was surprised that the director of Planned Parenthood would have such a nuanced perspective on the issue. (In retrospect and after a quick Google search, this makes perfect sense.)
I think everyone is approaching this issue in good faith; it's a shame so much hate gets in the way of understanding one another.
>>Now, imagine you look into it, and one ‘side’ of the debate talks about you as if you are a monster, while the other shows you empathy.
I definitely think I will be writing a response, and I think this line will be the one that I will be responding to. Because I think we both agree that 'one side' talks about women as if they were monsters. I think we may disagree on which side that is...
Interesting point! I'm looking forward to it.
I have compassion for both sides of the issue, and have no doubt that everyone has the woman's best interest in mind, even though they approach it from wildly different angles. I'm eager to see how you break this down.
Ah... and I don't. I don't think everyone has the woman's best interest in mind. I am way, way more cynical than that. I think that many political leaders, of both stripes, have mostly their own political power and prestige in mind; and my theological beliefs is that evil is deep in the heart of man.
I have the post mostly written and will put it in the queue. Tentatively scheduled Tuesday the 14th.
Ah, I misspoke—by 'everyone' I was referring to the 'typical' proponent of either side (i.e. the vast majority of pro-lifers fighting against abortion in order to save the babies, or the well-meaning liberals advocating for a woman's right to take control of her own life.
Undoubtedly politicians do not fall under this label.
There exists both evil and good in the heart of man, and depending on the topic, politicians play upon both of these tendencies in order to sway the public. On the abortion issue in particular, they tend to target virtue. Although I'm sure there are some people arguing in favor of baby-murder just for the hell of it, generally, people choose their side of this issue because they believe that it to be right and just.
Unfortunately there is money to be made in this “industry”. Very sick and sad.
Awesome, Melissa. Since God said this to Jeremiah: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5) Could it be Satan knows this and propagated abortion to stop the future prophets of God? I say, “yes.”