First things first, fiction is fiction. Even if it is wrapped up in what appears to be history, it may be slanted to a certain point of view. Which is a good thing, but just making sure you don't believe this to be historical truth. More often than not, authors take history and bend it to their purpose. This is their prerogative in this kind of work. If you are truly curious about the history of the Catholic Church, you will have to do your own homework. But this is not the purpose of this work. It is a murder mystery, which I also am very much enjoying.
Who's the killer and what is behind it all is certainly what makes me pick up the book every day and push on. But what I love of about the book is that it forces me to think. Not just about the story but in a metaphysical sense. It forces you not to think solely what is happening in the monastery, but what is happening in the celestial world. Are there consequences for what happens here, and why would someone accept or deny their faith? Why are some monks hypocrites and others live in earnest? It is so much food for thought that I am getting quite full and loving it.
I am in the same camp with John, I suspect Jorge, but I don't know why I feel a loathing of Berengar. He has disappeared, but he also seems nasty enough to be the culprit. However, we still lack why, even with the superstitious mumbo jumbo being thrown about. I love William's no-nonsense personality with great knowledge. He is always bringing us back to the here and now without forgetting that they are still men that have pledged their lives to God. The question lies in, what God have they truly pledged their lives to?
"What God have they truly pledged their lives to?" — well said; I think you've articulated the essential question of this work perfectly. You're right that the most interesting questions of the book are the metaphysical ones, and the ones you identify are fantastic. Is morality objective and divinely enforced? Has any religion ever truly aligned with 'objective reality'? How do people decide what is meaningful?
Regarding the historical accuracy of the book, while I certainly agree with you that none of this should be taken as absolute historical fact, I've really enjoyed being immersed in the time period, and I see a great deal of value in being able to discern an overview of what life may have been like back then from this fictional work. While I certainly wouldn't cite the novel as a source, there is something to be said for 'learning' through fiction.
As far as the murder mystery is concerned, I think Berengrar's motive is strongest, but agree that at this point, Jorge is the likeliest culprit. It's still early, though—I'm fully expecting something to come along and shatter both of these assumptions.
“Why are some monks hypocrites and others live in earnest?”
I’ve been intrigued by this from the reading too. Are they that hungry for knowledge that they chose to give up their lives for it and become a monk? I guess some of them are—like Berengar and Adelmo. Or others who obviously want the power like the Abbot, who takes pride in the abbey’s expansive library and the benefits it gives him.
This isn’t much different than the church of today. Some become priests because of the perks and monetary benefits, while others go in for their faith. Unfortunately, like the monks in the book, the unjust usually get the power since they’re going in for this specific purpose, tipping the scale in their favor while the earnest ones just get by.
In regards the the historical accuracy, I’m believing it to be pretty accurate. Eco was a medieval historian. He may have bent the rules a bit for his story to fit. I do notice that he appears to be showing off his knowledge, perhaps a but too much, through the conversations that take place between the characters.
Eco paints a beautiful picture though. I felt like I was standing in the musky library, searching through it by the flickering lamplight, trying to find clues. The images he describes of the grotesque sketches some of the monks oversee are unsettling. All while sucking me into a story which seems to have layer after layer. The whole thing is shaping up to be a masterpiece.
I totally agree that much of it is true. A most interesting thing is that no matter what era, what society, what religion this is a microcosm of the human condition. No matter where you go, there is bad amongst the good and it reeks havoc. Like wolves among the sheep.
Since it’s late and I’m just getting to answer these comments now, I’ll save a response to your detailed comment tomorrow.
In regards to the murderer, I’m glad I’m not the only one pinning it on Jorge so far. I have an equal disdain for Berengar. It must be from the fact that he is the cause of the murders so far… what he did to Adelmo is tragic.
I just nearly completed the Third day. I was subjected to a diatribe by William to poor Adso where he goes on and on in nonsensical circular fashion about how heresies come to be. In reading this, I immediately noted that he never makes recourse to Jesus Christ, the true Apostles or the early Church fathers and what they believed. This is how heresies are truly determined because this is the benchmark. That is when I realized that I had just been subjected to relativist godless Marxism in obscure fashion. His dark atheist views became quite apparent to me. Now it makes sense why it was embraced by the NY Times and Hollywood. This is the same sick evil that has enveloped this country and is destroying it from within. There is good and there is evil, and it doesn't matter what side of the fence you are on. A long time ago, I decided never to darken my mind with any book that makes me unhappy in any way. This has become one, and I will not continue to read it. Many good things come out of Italy, sadly this is not one of them.
Understood. I just got to the same part and thought it was the worst portion of the book so far. We’re going to see the book through to the end. Hope to see you join us on the next one!
Wow. That's surprising, especially after talking extensively about the deep moral questions the book posed.
Thank you for pointing this out. I'll keep my eye out—admittedly, since I've been having trouble with the book, if you hadn't mentioned it, the implications of this conversation might've gone completely over my head. Identifying where these views come from is food for thought in itself, but I completely understand you not wanting to subject yourself to it.
John and I enjoyed discussing this book with you and hope you decide to follow along with our next pick (still undecided).
May 3·edited May 3Liked by Melissa Petrie, John Mistretta
I appreciate your understanding. It was fun, but this is a hard fast rule I set many years ago. A person at the office lent me a book once they said was really good. I began reading it, halfway through I was in a dark place miserable and expressing that misery in life. I quit the book and regained my normal positive attitude after surviving through half of that dark tome. There are too many good and positive things to read that I don't need to bury myself in the world of dark pessimists such as I realize now Eco had become.
"It’s unclear how much of this is actually historically accurate ..." Since it's Eco I suspect most if it is. I haven't read it, the Warner edition, since '84. OK, I just pulled if off my shelf and might start a re-read of the 611 pages. After I finish my re-read of Mary Renault's Theseus books.
I did find his, Eco's 'The Island of the Day Before'. surprisingly, amazingly, accurate.
His noting for example, wounding two dogs from the same litter, keeping one in England, putting the other aboard ship, keeping the wounds on both raw and open and at a a fixed, agreed upon hour each day poking and irritating the wound on the one in England while those aboard the ship waited for their dog to howl in pain, to determine the hour, so as to be able to determine the longitude of the ship was an actual historical fact (Reference noting such; 'Longitude, The Story of a lone Genius Who Solved the Greatest Scientific Problem of His Time', Dava Sobel, ISBN 0-8027-1312-2).
Excuse the run-on, paragraph long, sentence, once I started writing I didn't see a suitable break, oh well. ;-)
I've been very impressed by the sheer amount of knowledge that Eco has, and am happy to hear that he seems to have done his research. The fact about how they used wounded dogs to determine the longitude of ships is fascinating—truth is stranger than fiction, I guess!
Happy to hear that you're thinking of picking the book up. I hope you do—it certainly seems like the kind of book that is worth a reread.
Wow this is great!!! So glad you’re going to pick the book back up. I just bought a copy of “The Island of the Day Before” too, maybe I’ll check it out after this. Thanks for joining the book club and adding this comment to the discussion.
I read something by this author years ago and was impressed by his use of language and complexities-I deduced I was not smart enough to fully appreciate his work and have not read him since! I am interested to follow your content though as you move through his book. 😊
First things first, fiction is fiction. Even if it is wrapped up in what appears to be history, it may be slanted to a certain point of view. Which is a good thing, but just making sure you don't believe this to be historical truth. More often than not, authors take history and bend it to their purpose. This is their prerogative in this kind of work. If you are truly curious about the history of the Catholic Church, you will have to do your own homework. But this is not the purpose of this work. It is a murder mystery, which I also am very much enjoying.
Who's the killer and what is behind it all is certainly what makes me pick up the book every day and push on. But what I love of about the book is that it forces me to think. Not just about the story but in a metaphysical sense. It forces you not to think solely what is happening in the monastery, but what is happening in the celestial world. Are there consequences for what happens here, and why would someone accept or deny their faith? Why are some monks hypocrites and others live in earnest? It is so much food for thought that I am getting quite full and loving it.
I am in the same camp with John, I suspect Jorge, but I don't know why I feel a loathing of Berengar. He has disappeared, but he also seems nasty enough to be the culprit. However, we still lack why, even with the superstitious mumbo jumbo being thrown about. I love William's no-nonsense personality with great knowledge. He is always bringing us back to the here and now without forgetting that they are still men that have pledged their lives to God. The question lies in, what God have they truly pledged their lives to?
"What God have they truly pledged their lives to?" — well said; I think you've articulated the essential question of this work perfectly. You're right that the most interesting questions of the book are the metaphysical ones, and the ones you identify are fantastic. Is morality objective and divinely enforced? Has any religion ever truly aligned with 'objective reality'? How do people decide what is meaningful?
Regarding the historical accuracy of the book, while I certainly agree with you that none of this should be taken as absolute historical fact, I've really enjoyed being immersed in the time period, and I see a great deal of value in being able to discern an overview of what life may have been like back then from this fictional work. While I certainly wouldn't cite the novel as a source, there is something to be said for 'learning' through fiction.
As far as the murder mystery is concerned, I think Berengrar's motive is strongest, but agree that at this point, Jorge is the likeliest culprit. It's still early, though—I'm fully expecting something to come along and shatter both of these assumptions.
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
You are spot on.
“Why are some monks hypocrites and others live in earnest?”
I’ve been intrigued by this from the reading too. Are they that hungry for knowledge that they chose to give up their lives for it and become a monk? I guess some of them are—like Berengar and Adelmo. Or others who obviously want the power like the Abbot, who takes pride in the abbey’s expansive library and the benefits it gives him.
This isn’t much different than the church of today. Some become priests because of the perks and monetary benefits, while others go in for their faith. Unfortunately, like the monks in the book, the unjust usually get the power since they’re going in for this specific purpose, tipping the scale in their favor while the earnest ones just get by.
In regards the the historical accuracy, I’m believing it to be pretty accurate. Eco was a medieval historian. He may have bent the rules a bit for his story to fit. I do notice that he appears to be showing off his knowledge, perhaps a but too much, through the conversations that take place between the characters.
Eco paints a beautiful picture though. I felt like I was standing in the musky library, searching through it by the flickering lamplight, trying to find clues. The images he describes of the grotesque sketches some of the monks oversee are unsettling. All while sucking me into a story which seems to have layer after layer. The whole thing is shaping up to be a masterpiece.
I totally agree that much of it is true. A most interesting thing is that no matter what era, what society, what religion this is a microcosm of the human condition. No matter where you go, there is bad amongst the good and it reeks havoc. Like wolves among the sheep.
Since it’s late and I’m just getting to answer these comments now, I’ll save a response to your detailed comment tomorrow.
In regards to the murderer, I’m glad I’m not the only one pinning it on Jorge so far. I have an equal disdain for Berengar. It must be from the fact that he is the cause of the murders so far… what he did to Adelmo is tragic.
Dear friends,
I just nearly completed the Third day. I was subjected to a diatribe by William to poor Adso where he goes on and on in nonsensical circular fashion about how heresies come to be. In reading this, I immediately noted that he never makes recourse to Jesus Christ, the true Apostles or the early Church fathers and what they believed. This is how heresies are truly determined because this is the benchmark. That is when I realized that I had just been subjected to relativist godless Marxism in obscure fashion. His dark atheist views became quite apparent to me. Now it makes sense why it was embraced by the NY Times and Hollywood. This is the same sick evil that has enveloped this country and is destroying it from within. There is good and there is evil, and it doesn't matter what side of the fence you are on. A long time ago, I decided never to darken my mind with any book that makes me unhappy in any way. This has become one, and I will not continue to read it. Many good things come out of Italy, sadly this is not one of them.
Understood. I just got to the same part and thought it was the worst portion of the book so far. We’re going to see the book through to the end. Hope to see you join us on the next one!
Wow. That's surprising, especially after talking extensively about the deep moral questions the book posed.
Thank you for pointing this out. I'll keep my eye out—admittedly, since I've been having trouble with the book, if you hadn't mentioned it, the implications of this conversation might've gone completely over my head. Identifying where these views come from is food for thought in itself, but I completely understand you not wanting to subject yourself to it.
John and I enjoyed discussing this book with you and hope you decide to follow along with our next pick (still undecided).
I appreciate your understanding. It was fun, but this is a hard fast rule I set many years ago. A person at the office lent me a book once they said was really good. I began reading it, halfway through I was in a dark place miserable and expressing that misery in life. I quit the book and regained my normal positive attitude after surviving through half of that dark tome. There are too many good and positive things to read that I don't need to bury myself in the world of dark pessimists such as I realize now Eco had become.
"It’s unclear how much of this is actually historically accurate ..." Since it's Eco I suspect most if it is. I haven't read it, the Warner edition, since '84. OK, I just pulled if off my shelf and might start a re-read of the 611 pages. After I finish my re-read of Mary Renault's Theseus books.
I did find his, Eco's 'The Island of the Day Before'. surprisingly, amazingly, accurate.
His noting for example, wounding two dogs from the same litter, keeping one in England, putting the other aboard ship, keeping the wounds on both raw and open and at a a fixed, agreed upon hour each day poking and irritating the wound on the one in England while those aboard the ship waited for their dog to howl in pain, to determine the hour, so as to be able to determine the longitude of the ship was an actual historical fact (Reference noting such; 'Longitude, The Story of a lone Genius Who Solved the Greatest Scientific Problem of His Time', Dava Sobel, ISBN 0-8027-1312-2).
Excuse the run-on, paragraph long, sentence, once I started writing I didn't see a suitable break, oh well. ;-)
I've been very impressed by the sheer amount of knowledge that Eco has, and am happy to hear that he seems to have done his research. The fact about how they used wounded dogs to determine the longitude of ships is fascinating—truth is stranger than fiction, I guess!
Happy to hear that you're thinking of picking the book up. I hope you do—it certainly seems like the kind of book that is worth a reread.
Wow this is great!!! So glad you’re going to pick the book back up. I just bought a copy of “The Island of the Day Before” too, maybe I’ll check it out after this. Thanks for joining the book club and adding this comment to the discussion.
Thanks for doing this you two. Let me pick up, so I can start at chapter 2, Second Day???
Yep hop aboard and catch up! The goal is to read up to the end of Third Day by next Wednesday
I will do my best.
Cool. If you can’t, read at your own pace. We’ll still be here!
I read something by this author years ago and was impressed by his use of language and complexities-I deduced I was not smart enough to fully appreciate his work and have not read him since! I am interested to follow your content though as you move through his book. 😊
That’s great! You could always read along at your own pace and come back to these posts to add to the discussion down the line. Glad to have you here!