It’s honestly a bit wild to read your guys comments so far. I appreciate your candor in that you don’t hide how neither of you seem to particularly care for the book yet but it really almost feels like we’re not even looking at the same work
Granted, I don’t find myself currently lost in the sophistications of Plato’s Republic or Orwell’s London as a place of reference but perhaps it’s actually a gift to have the mind of a simple pleb in this case
I hope that neither of you take this the wrong way as I have no problem admitting the bias of my desire to defend Herbert’s work as well as my interest in it. I also would like to come forward and say that I haven’t extensively read any of your other articles, reviews, or commentaries. From what I do see, you paint yourselves as highbrow individuals promoting the readings of Dostoevsky and making attempts to teach the rest of us facts of history which is why I find it so strange that you neither of you seem to view this as an allegory or commentary on society and values
It seems Ms. Petrie has a much more open mind towards the work than Mr. Mistretta for whom I would recommend to go back to bookshelf and find that shelved copy of Foucault’s Pendulum because for as little as Paul’s short responses add to the book in your narrow view of exposition, I would propose that your long responses add even less to the discussion of this fine literary work
and as another unsolicited piece of advise. . . I’d say the ~75 pg/week pace that felt “natural” for you guys does a disservice to the reading experience - I think you’d find the story more enjoyable if you push through at a faster pace. It’s something that could easily be finished in a day of dedicated solid reading and yet for you to stretch it out over almost 2 months so you can clout chase seems unwarranted
Of course it’s your book club though, do what you will but I’d love to delve into a discussion about some of the comments each of you have made so far! Worth specific mention are some of Ms. Petrie’s earlier chosen quotes and the interesting and astute correlations she’s made to our world. I think Mr. Mistretta would do well to have someone discuss with him various differences in the humans of our society and those of a fictional world, set ~20,000 years in the future, in which psychotropic drugs and cult based training programs have risen to the forefront of an imperialist society. I’d also be happy to bring up other topics of social conditioning, etiquette, effects of colonialism, or even religion - all topics which are clearly brought up in this “boring” work - but he seems more pressed in discovering mysteries of SpongeBob SquarePants at this point
Please forgive my fanaticism. . . Looking forward to next weeks publication!
Thanks for the feedback! Trust me, I’d love to keep the clout chasing to a minimum and read the book at a quicker pace. Sadly, with a job and not a whole lot of interest in the piece so far, I haven’t been able to surpass the current pace. Finishing the novel ASAP for the sake of my sanity and the book club’s integrity (what little there may be) would otherwise be the preferred option. Spongebob—and Trump—worms aside, if you have something to add, please do!
No need to apologize for life being in session, or not finding the work to be your cup of tea. Appreciate your dedication to see it through, despite the initial misgivings you’re experiencing. Hope my comments didn’t further spoil your limited interest in the work - I meant it sincerely when I said that I look forward to next week’s write up!
Think I’ve added enough here. . . I know how I feel about the work and the things that stand out to me in the first 160 alone but if that spark isn’t there for you, it’s not my place to try and put it there. I’m sorry if I overstepped in some of my initial remarks, I didn’t mean any insult to you or the book club
Sorry you haven't enjoyed our discussion of the book. Nothing here is intended to attack Frank Herbert or any fans of his—it's all in good fun.
If you'd like to mention anything specific regarding social conditioning, etc. that have shown up in these first 160 pages, feel free to share. That's the whole point of this, after all. If you can't (which was kind of what we were getting at) and still feel like reading about that stuff, feel free to check out some of our other work.
I wouldn’t say I haven’t enjoyed the discussion, I do get that it’s all in good fun at the end of the day. It’s just a bit sad to see neither of you really seem to be having fun with the work - at least not yet. I didn’t take any offense by your writings and I hope you didn’t take any by mine. Still hoping at least one of you comes around but happy to hear from across the aisle on it until then
It’s your guys book club, I guess the main question is what are you hoping to get out of “discussion” with others? We’ve gone over the same material but if you find it lackluster, I don’t think I can change that by forcing you to talk about it. I think you’re right to recommend me to look into your other works to get a better sense of your writings/beliefs/interests
If you want someone to point the finger towards the topic of social conditioning specifically in the first 160 pages then there are clear references already to characters undergoing blatant conditioning. These includes with Paul, Yueh, the Fremen, Piter for starters. Are their motives and backgrounds so hidden that you don’t see how they’re pervasive even in our society/culture? Family, Career, Religion, Drugs. Even to boil it down that simply ignores so much nuance. Ignores the discussion of how to manipulate conditioning and how it can also be used as a form of manipulation (which yes, has been brought up in the first 160 pages)
Even you to say “nothing really happened in the last 80 pages,” feels weird when you consider you were introduced to characters like Mapes, seeing her interaction with Jessica, the display of energy in the Fremen population with their renewed hopes of prophecies being fulfilled, the first written encounter with a sandworm, the dry talk about the Fremen who “died” by not having space in the ornithopter, the signs of humanitarianism passed down in the
ancestral house of Paul’s father. I get that if you’ve seen the movies then you won’t find yourself surprised by much but to think that none of this raises any kind of flag for you?
Apologies if you find me to be looking deeper into something that isn’t really there. But isn’t that what this is about? Tiny crumbs that stimulate the “thinking man”?
It's strange how literature impacts different people. A writer's voice can affect someone profoundly while completely failing to connect with someone else.
You describe a vibrant world with lively, nuanced characters and subtle details which hint towards a deeper understanding—all things which came off as kind of flat to me, but which, after reading your interpretation, may begin to stand out more as I continue reading.
Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to the way Paul is being used as a sort of pawn, the coercion that influences Yueh's actions, or the Fremen's invigorated hopes (and, admittedly, I haven't really given Piter much thought at all).
I disagree with your statement that discussion isn't likely to change my mind about the book. Reading other people's thoughts about a book can foster an appreciation for it, even if it isn't something one would typically enjoy. (Plus, although I admittedly expected to have more to say about the book when we began reading, we set out on this project with the intent to discuss the book's deeper implications).
I hope you continue to post your thoughts as we continue to read the books, and I'll definitely try to see what you see in it moving forward.
Also, a disclaimer—neither of us have watched any of the movies. All of these thoughts are from going into this book completely blind.
No need to overextend yourself in seeing what may not have even been the author's intent because of some devil’s advocate on the internet. I recognize that the reading has already turned into a bit of a chore as is, I'd be sorry to think that anything about my words added strain to the task
I should be upfront - for all the thought put in and praise the book gets, it’s by no means a fully polished gem. That shouldn’t take away from the impressiveness of a work which, you've already noticed, provides material to open the door on topics like: AI censorship, the backbone of society, religion/prophecy/soul, oil/resource management, war, psychotropics, prescience - woven into the first 75 pages alone
Sure, we can admit that some of those are generous extensions but the most interesting discussions to come out of Dune at this point won't necessarily be a debate of Herbert's specific prose but more about exploring the thematic choices
At the end of the day, it’s just some genre pioneering work with style, format, and content thats not going to resonate with every modern day reader. If it’s not for you, it’s not for you. Sorry it doesn’t hit the same
Keep up the candor, no need to force or feign interest along the way. Looking forward to the future write ups, the best of the book and discussion is yet to come!
It’s honestly a bit wild to read your guys comments so far. I appreciate your candor in that you don’t hide how neither of you seem to particularly care for the book yet but it really almost feels like we’re not even looking at the same work
Granted, I don’t find myself currently lost in the sophistications of Plato’s Republic or Orwell’s London as a place of reference but perhaps it’s actually a gift to have the mind of a simple pleb in this case
I hope that neither of you take this the wrong way as I have no problem admitting the bias of my desire to defend Herbert’s work as well as my interest in it. I also would like to come forward and say that I haven’t extensively read any of your other articles, reviews, or commentaries. From what I do see, you paint yourselves as highbrow individuals promoting the readings of Dostoevsky and making attempts to teach the rest of us facts of history which is why I find it so strange that you neither of you seem to view this as an allegory or commentary on society and values
It seems Ms. Petrie has a much more open mind towards the work than Mr. Mistretta for whom I would recommend to go back to bookshelf and find that shelved copy of Foucault’s Pendulum because for as little as Paul’s short responses add to the book in your narrow view of exposition, I would propose that your long responses add even less to the discussion of this fine literary work
and as another unsolicited piece of advise. . . I’d say the ~75 pg/week pace that felt “natural” for you guys does a disservice to the reading experience - I think you’d find the story more enjoyable if you push through at a faster pace. It’s something that could easily be finished in a day of dedicated solid reading and yet for you to stretch it out over almost 2 months so you can clout chase seems unwarranted
Of course it’s your book club though, do what you will but I’d love to delve into a discussion about some of the comments each of you have made so far! Worth specific mention are some of Ms. Petrie’s earlier chosen quotes and the interesting and astute correlations she’s made to our world. I think Mr. Mistretta would do well to have someone discuss with him various differences in the humans of our society and those of a fictional world, set ~20,000 years in the future, in which psychotropic drugs and cult based training programs have risen to the forefront of an imperialist society. I’d also be happy to bring up other topics of social conditioning, etiquette, effects of colonialism, or even religion - all topics which are clearly brought up in this “boring” work - but he seems more pressed in discovering mysteries of SpongeBob SquarePants at this point
Please forgive my fanaticism. . . Looking forward to next weeks publication!
Thanks for the feedback! Trust me, I’d love to keep the clout chasing to a minimum and read the book at a quicker pace. Sadly, with a job and not a whole lot of interest in the piece so far, I haven’t been able to surpass the current pace. Finishing the novel ASAP for the sake of my sanity and the book club’s integrity (what little there may be) would otherwise be the preferred option. Spongebob—and Trump—worms aside, if you have something to add, please do!
No need to apologize for life being in session, or not finding the work to be your cup of tea. Appreciate your dedication to see it through, despite the initial misgivings you’re experiencing. Hope my comments didn’t further spoil your limited interest in the work - I meant it sincerely when I said that I look forward to next week’s write up!
Think I’ve added enough here. . . I know how I feel about the work and the things that stand out to me in the first 160 alone but if that spark isn’t there for you, it’s not my place to try and put it there. I’m sorry if I overstepped in some of my initial remarks, I didn’t mean any insult to you or the book club
Looking forward to you adding to our discussion on the next update. Come packing!
Sorry you haven't enjoyed our discussion of the book. Nothing here is intended to attack Frank Herbert or any fans of his—it's all in good fun.
If you'd like to mention anything specific regarding social conditioning, etc. that have shown up in these first 160 pages, feel free to share. That's the whole point of this, after all. If you can't (which was kind of what we were getting at) and still feel like reading about that stuff, feel free to check out some of our other work.
I wouldn’t say I haven’t enjoyed the discussion, I do get that it’s all in good fun at the end of the day. It’s just a bit sad to see neither of you really seem to be having fun with the work - at least not yet. I didn’t take any offense by your writings and I hope you didn’t take any by mine. Still hoping at least one of you comes around but happy to hear from across the aisle on it until then
It’s your guys book club, I guess the main question is what are you hoping to get out of “discussion” with others? We’ve gone over the same material but if you find it lackluster, I don’t think I can change that by forcing you to talk about it. I think you’re right to recommend me to look into your other works to get a better sense of your writings/beliefs/interests
If you want someone to point the finger towards the topic of social conditioning specifically in the first 160 pages then there are clear references already to characters undergoing blatant conditioning. These includes with Paul, Yueh, the Fremen, Piter for starters. Are their motives and backgrounds so hidden that you don’t see how they’re pervasive even in our society/culture? Family, Career, Religion, Drugs. Even to boil it down that simply ignores so much nuance. Ignores the discussion of how to manipulate conditioning and how it can also be used as a form of manipulation (which yes, has been brought up in the first 160 pages)
Even you to say “nothing really happened in the last 80 pages,” feels weird when you consider you were introduced to characters like Mapes, seeing her interaction with Jessica, the display of energy in the Fremen population with their renewed hopes of prophecies being fulfilled, the first written encounter with a sandworm, the dry talk about the Fremen who “died” by not having space in the ornithopter, the signs of humanitarianism passed down in the
ancestral house of Paul’s father. I get that if you’ve seen the movies then you won’t find yourself surprised by much but to think that none of this raises any kind of flag for you?
Apologies if you find me to be looking deeper into something that isn’t really there. But isn’t that what this is about? Tiny crumbs that stimulate the “thinking man”?
It's strange how literature impacts different people. A writer's voice can affect someone profoundly while completely failing to connect with someone else.
You describe a vibrant world with lively, nuanced characters and subtle details which hint towards a deeper understanding—all things which came off as kind of flat to me, but which, after reading your interpretation, may begin to stand out more as I continue reading.
Maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to the way Paul is being used as a sort of pawn, the coercion that influences Yueh's actions, or the Fremen's invigorated hopes (and, admittedly, I haven't really given Piter much thought at all).
I disagree with your statement that discussion isn't likely to change my mind about the book. Reading other people's thoughts about a book can foster an appreciation for it, even if it isn't something one would typically enjoy. (Plus, although I admittedly expected to have more to say about the book when we began reading, we set out on this project with the intent to discuss the book's deeper implications).
I hope you continue to post your thoughts as we continue to read the books, and I'll definitely try to see what you see in it moving forward.
Also, a disclaimer—neither of us have watched any of the movies. All of these thoughts are from going into this book completely blind.
No need to overextend yourself in seeing what may not have even been the author's intent because of some devil’s advocate on the internet. I recognize that the reading has already turned into a bit of a chore as is, I'd be sorry to think that anything about my words added strain to the task
I should be upfront - for all the thought put in and praise the book gets, it’s by no means a fully polished gem. That shouldn’t take away from the impressiveness of a work which, you've already noticed, provides material to open the door on topics like: AI censorship, the backbone of society, religion/prophecy/soul, oil/resource management, war, psychotropics, prescience - woven into the first 75 pages alone
Sure, we can admit that some of those are generous extensions but the most interesting discussions to come out of Dune at this point won't necessarily be a debate of Herbert's specific prose but more about exploring the thematic choices
At the end of the day, it’s just some genre pioneering work with style, format, and content thats not going to resonate with every modern day reader. If it’s not for you, it’s not for you. Sorry it doesn’t hit the same
Keep up the candor, no need to force or feign interest along the way. Looking forward to the future write ups, the best of the book and discussion is yet to come!